Bangkok Lesbian

Hi all

It's an interesting issue for me and I would like to discuss it with the people who are "in subject", so to say. Sorry for so much text, but I don't know how to say it all shorter, not loosing important details

1-st my story that made me try to find out more on Thai female gender variations.

Coming to Thailand for the 1-st time I knew nothing not only about the local lesbian gender division but even that there is a lesbian community here. Actually it was a package beach-tour bought in one day, when me and my wife realized that we could coordinate our vacations and travel somewhere together. So I was learning all the things already by "field survey"

The city that we stayed in was (not surprising) Pattaya, and soon having our gaydars switched on we got several Thai lesbian friends. And that was the moment when we faced all these local gender things because both me and my wife were (and still are, though not togenther already) really not feminine. Actually she is a butch and I can switch between a butch and an androginious femme, but that time we liked to look a butchie couple - very short haircuts, similar looking boyish cloth, etc.

Almost all the 1-st week we were explaining our new Thai friends that we are a couple, that we have sex, and how it can be that two bois are attracted to each other, seeing shoked faces all the way, both of tomboys and their ladies But it was not unusual for us to be perceived as freaks (even at home we were frequently asked, if we have an agenda of who is the top today ) so we soon got used to.

Funnier was after. When my new Thai friends knew that me and my wife decided to part, I was in some time offered sex by few Thai tomboys (yeah, of those who was so shoked in the beginning). To clarify things, I never pay for sex, both direct or indirect way, and it's a principal position, so these offers were for fun, not "for work" - at least I suppose so, because these bois knew I was not a potentail customer.

It ended up with me having a Thai girlfriend (..boyfriend?... tomboyfriend ) with a frequently occuring Thai-farang way of relationship - I live pretty far away, so we are not (and have never been) sexually loyal to each other, but I come to Thailand to see her and she manages with her girlfriends/wifes that she spends time with me.

But closer to the problem - by my private experience I know that tomboys (and Thai tomboys as well) can be attracted to musculine women. Especially if they are not afraid to look freaky showing that they like the same kind of women that they are. And there are two more things that support me in this position:

- being in Thailand I several times saw couples of 2 androginous Thai women (usually over their 30-th), by whose appearance it cannot be seen, who is a tomboy and who is a lady in this couple;

- there are many toms that are really feminine, even with their tightened breasts and short haircuts, and I know that being a tom or a dee does not define sexual roles.

But still I know the official gender position, because my gf is a vivid representative of the traditional way of Thai-tomboy-thinking, with all those "I'm a man, I have the power" and so on (for which I sometimes wanna kick her, because I'm a feminist). When I ask her how could it be that she liked me, she says "you're a farang, it's different" or "for me you're a lady", but I think she just doesn't want to break the system that's in her mind, because I don't look and don't behave like a "lady", either in private or on public, and it seems to be OK with her.

So I want to ask - do you know Thai female couples of 2 bois, or 2 ladies, or those who do not position themselves strictly a tom or a dee? Or maybe those who has farang girlfriends of "not corresponding" type? It would be very interesting for me if you share your experience and your thoughts on this matter

Hi, interesting post here. You bring up some interesting points about the gender rules that's going on in this country.

I don't know that many other lesbians though, except for on this site and the only Thai couple i know who don't fit the stereotype so far was me and my girlfriend in high school... neither one of us were toms. Back then i was really femme and my gf at the time wasn't a tom either. In fact, put her in traditional thai clothes and she'll look like a real nang ake (นางเอก... as in heroine, traditional goody2shoes thai heroine often found in soap operas)

I look less femminine now i think (at least compared to back then), but i don't ever consider myself butch or a tomboy... i don't go by either label. I always thought the gender rules with the tom/dee thing were pretty limiting.

Thanks for the answer and inviting me to your friends! (btw, if u need any help in Russian history or anything Russian, u're welcome )

First let me say that i'm very glad (and surprised, to be honest) to meet a thai person with such a European approach of self-identification I really got used here that even a modern-minded thai people use tom-dee system and I perceived it a Thai national feature, like your love to the King, you know

And second - yeah, it's the same old question about using stereotypes. It is very in fashion now (at least at my homecountry and EU) to deny stereotypes at all, though there are always people who successfully use them not bothering that they look old-fashioned or something

What I think about it is that if stereotypes was of no use, there wouldn't be stereotypes. Life is too different and changing and we cannot evaluate everything we meet with in an individual, each time new way. Just have not ehough time and, I would say, "brain capacity" Using stereotypes lets us think fast and know what most probabaly to expect from this or that, basing on our existing knowledge and logical assumptions about what we don't know. In fact, it is a very global and incredibly working system (from gender, national, age stereotypes to potential behaviour of a tuk-tuk driver on Khao San) that makes our life much easier than it might be without it. And I think that's why there are so many systems of labels - professional, political, level-of-income, etc. - by which people communicate in a non-verbal way.

I think, problems begin when people forget that "most probably" does not mean "100%" If the person they meet behaves not the way they expected, they perceive it not as a sign to stop using the stereotype and use individual approach - no, they think there is something wrong with this person. It makes some people (who are considered "wrong") be against some stereotypes or the whole system, though they often continue using the stereotypes/labels that work for them

So I cannot say that I'm against stereotypes, I consider it a worthful thing, which one can use or not use on her/his own choice. Or even play with it - for example, last night I went to E-Fun with my very short hair, no make-up, no heels, in wide pants and a dress, ehehe

Thailand is interesting... I have my own conundrums in this area. As a male-to-female transsexual who considers herself neither tom or dee but prefers to be a top and who likes tomboys, I've found it an issue. One tomboy I was involved with told me if I wanted to be a top I needed to be a tom and find a dee. Maybe I should and try to find a tom-gay gf.

!!!
@Fatso and Granuaile
Interesting stories! Please allow me to exchange a view from another group of Thai lesbians. I have about 20 Thai lesbian friends/acquaintances who do NOT play 'tom' and 'dee' roles. They are just themselves and are happy. (Actually, that accounts for almost all of the Thai lesbians that I know of.) Some appear more boyish but they are not 'tom'. This group of people include girls who are not in close contact with western cultures. Some are even from the countryside and there they are, appearing so boyish and all, but refusing to be referred to as 'tom'.

I think it depends on:
1. how radical one is and how ready she is to conform to what are fed to her by the society.
2. her experiences/ exposure to the alternatives (of being something else outside the restricted boundary of 'tom' and 'dee' role-playing).

Personally, I think a girl has the right to choose her gender roles, be it 'tom', 'dee', hetero girls, or lesbians. BUT she has to really look into herself and understand what's going on inside it, not just trying to fit herself into a pre-defined definition. That's so wrong. And what's worse is when the society tries to thrust what it thinks into an individual, ruining her, spoiling the capacity of the person to think by herself. Even though this is a normal practice in every society, we should try to go beyond that.

amen tinc

@tinc I think you are absolutely right, and most of the women I have met other than toms seem to identify as lesbian rather than as dees, though not all. And I think that is good. A lot of it though is attitude, and a lot of tomboys have an attitude that I really like, I don't mean emulating men, or having lots of girlfriends - I've met a number who do not fall into the stereotypes.

Hmmm, for me maybe it is that the first person I was involved with after my surgery was a tomboy here in BKK and she accepted me totally, 100% despite a large age difference, my past, lol our biggest problem was that we were both very stubborn individuals. I liked the way she dressed, the fact that she didn't usually wear any makeup, and honestly I liked her determination. Whether one calls oneself tom or not doesn't matter to me, and there are some things I don't care for. but there is something in them I find very attractive, though I will never be a dee and I am not attracted to a tom that is too butch. But few go to the extreme that I consider too butch.

But just my perspective. I've met feminine women I was attracted to, women who were not butch that I was attracted to, but I find myself here mostly attracted to tomboys, or maybe I should say tomboy types.

Just an aside, there is a book on the tom and dy aspect of Thai society. Toms & Dees: Transgender Identity and Female Same-Sex Relationships in Thailand by Megan J. Sinnott.

I had copies in the US but didn't bring with me, but I found a copy at Asia Books on Sukhumvit Road just a block or two from Robinson's on the same side of the road. I had looked before but a couple of weeks ago asked, and no one could find though it showed up in their system as having one copy. It was 625 baht and seemed slightly used but maybe had been there for a time. In the US I believe it is published by The University of Hawaii Press, the copy I have here is by Silkworm Books. Sinnott according to the back cover is a lecturer in lesbian and gay studies at Yale.

I bought it originally in the US because of my involvement with the tomboy I met here. I started with an assumption that everyone was a lesbian, but talking with her made me curious so I bought this title. Too, it doesn't seem easy to find here. I have never seen it on the shelves in any bookstore, despite the plethora of books on other issues related to sex and gender, maybe because it is not asked for often.

But while I am not sure about everything in (I don't consider most toms transgender, though some definitely are and by it's nature it has a transgender aspect - my friend at least said she would never want to be a man, though she has a lot of male mannerisms... but every person is unique).

Fatso wrote:
Thanks for the answer and inviting me to your friends! (btw, if u need any help in Russian history or anything Russian, u're welcome )

First let me say that i'm very glad (and surprised, to be honest) to meet a thai person with such a European approach of self-identification I really got used here that even a modern-minded thai people use tom-dee system and I perceived it a Thai national feature, like your love to the King, you know

And second - yeah, it's the same old question about using stereotypes. It is very in fashion now (at least at my homecountry and EU) to deny stereotypes at all, though there are always people who successfully use them not bothering that they look old-fashioned or something

What I think about it is that if stereotypes was of no use, there wouldn't be stereotypes. Life is too different and changing and we cannot evaluate everything we meet with in an individual, each time new way. Just have not ehough time and, I would say, "brain capacity" Using stereotypes lets us think fast and know what most probabaly to expect from this or that, basing on our existing knowledge and logical assumptions about what we don't know. In fact, it is a very global and incredibly working system (from gender, national, age stereotypes to potential behaviour of a tuk-tuk driver on Khao San) that makes our life much easier than it might be without it. And I think that's why there are so many systems of labels - professional, political, level-of-income, etc. - by which people communicate in a non-verbal way.

I think, problems begin when people forget that "most probably" does not mean "100%" If the person they meet behaves not the way they expected, they perceive it not as a sign to stop using the stereotype and use individual approach - no, they think there is something wrong with this person. It makes some people (who are considered "wrong") be against some stereotypes or the whole system, though they often continue using the stereotypes/labels that work for them

So I cannot say that I'm against stereotypes, I consider it a worthful thing, which one can use or not use on her/his own choice. Or even play with it - for example, last night I went to E-Fun with my very short hair, no make-up, no heels, in wide pants and a dress, ehehe

Hey, sorry for the late reply... i only come here every once in a while. And thanks for the offer

Anyway, you bring up a good point about stereotypes. They do work, just it's not 100% and people forget that some times. For me, i just don't label myself as anything because i never really found a label that actually fit, not because 'labels are uncool' or anything like that.

I think there are always exceptions to rules... and often more of them than people originally thought... i also think there's a fair number of lesbians in Thailand who probably don't fit the tom-dee thing. But maybe they're just not as common, or are more scattered? I think a fair number of the lesbians on this site probably don't fit the tom-dee stereotypes.

@HRB I think that there are a great many who do not fit the stereotypes, and I think that many people find themselves pushed into them. For certain on this site it seems to be the exception, rather than the rule. Personally I wish there was greater flexibility in the roles so that there could be a more continuous spectrum. However one butch friend here in the group once told me there is more diversity than the stereotypes, noting tom-gays for example (the book I mentioned also mentioned such challenges which often had social repercussions within one's peer group) so it is not monolithic.

I've noticed the use in Bangkok increasingly too of the phrase "tom-dy-lez" for example the "Every Tom Dy Lez Show Festival #1" and in @Tom Act magazine (anyone know if the new issue is out?)

Yeah, i don't think i've seen many people here who identify as tom or dee. And i wish there was more flexibility here too.

There's a magazine like that here? hmm... i never knew that...

Yeah, I think you might be able to get it at Zeta and EFun but not sure. I have always bought at SE-ED, that is the only bookstore where I've seen it. It comes out bimonthly.

I have seen quite a number of places that sell the magazine. I used to buy a couple of them. But I found it based mainly on tom-dee things, so I kinda lost interest.

I think the places that sell it are somewhere teemed with teenagers or else are places you can find a lot of toms and dees, like a 7-11 near an all-girl high school.

Anyway,...
What exactly is a tom-gay? I kinda heard about it but am not sure I understand the meaning right. Aren't they normal lesbians?

I'll have to scrutinize the 7-11s more.

Back when Cee had a forum discussion on the topic going here, someone who I am pretty sure was a tom (but just based on style so might not have been) and I exchanged some private messages here. She said not all conformed to the dictated roles (i.e., tom always being the top, etc) and mentioned tom-gays saying they were toms who like other toms, hence tom-gay.

ok guys, here's the roles:

tom: woman who binds breasts, dresses as a man, only dates a "dy" and typically uses male pronouns and "krap". typically does not let anyone touch her sexually - only gives. often does not even get naked in front of her dy.

dy: woman who dresses ultra femme. dates toms. is the "receiver" sexually.

andro: an androgynous woman who likes who-knows-what (i haven't met anyone who considers herself an "andro" for awhile, i think this name is not so common anymore.)

les(bian): a femme who likes femmes. two way sex.

les-king: a femme "top" (again, gotta distinguish here). sex with "les" goes both ways, but there's the more aggressive one and she's the "king".

les-queen: the bottom (see les-king)

tom-gay: a tom who is attracted to other toms. i'm guessing the sex is two way otherwise they're going to get bored fast. note that the tom-gays are the bottom of the thai lesbian social pecking order. i've heard tom/dys make fun of them and call them "gay". yea - think about that for a minute! it seems to be getting better tho - i saw a "tom-gay" night at e-fun recently and they were on stage strutting around, so who knows.

Granuaile wrote:
I'll have to scrutinize the 7-11s more.


My thoughts exactly lol

And cee thanks for clearing up the terms. I never heard of most of those, only tom/dy and tom-gay.

I thought femmes who like other femmes were lipstick lesbians... or is that just in the US?

Interesting because in the US I don't think of most lesbians as femme or butch, mostly the people I new were to neither extreme. I always thought of a lipstick lesbian as a very femme lesbian, though I might be wrong - there was not a large lesbian community where I lived. That said there were plenty who were butch, like the former priest at the church I attended. But most seemed somewhere in a very broad middle. LOL, I looked up lipstick lesbian in wikipedia and it said the L Word depicted most of its characters that way. I never really saw them quite as extreme as I think of lipstick lesbians but that would explain why I wasn't attracted to most of them.

About andro, I have a friend, who after I came here described herself that way to me. But she seems very tom/butch to me... so I am not sure what it means either. LOL, she's really cute, has a smile that I find infective, and no she isn't the one I was crazy about. But she is a sweet person.

You know I don't think of myself as femme, and for sure not butch though guess for sure more butch than femme. LOL, perhaps I should start calling myself tom-gay and see if my love life improves... 55555

Granuaile wrote:
Interesting because in the US I don't think of most lesbians as femme or butch, mostly the people I knew were to neither extreme. I always thought of a lipstick lesbian as a very femme lesbian, though I might be wrong - there was not a large lesbian community where I lived. That said there were plenty who were butch, like the former priest at the church I attended. But most seemed somewhere in a very broad middle. LOL, I looked up lipstick lesbian in wikipedia and it said the L Word depicted most of its characters that way. I never really saw them quite as extreme as I think of lipstick lesbians but that would explain why I wasn't attracted to most of them.


Yeah, i think i'm like that... like in the US, neither extremes.

I think a lot of the lesbians on TV i've seen are more the lipstick variety though... only in anime I've seen some bifauxnen.

This is a very good topic again indeed, thanks Fatso for starting this

You've said it all girls...and I agree to all of it and aside from breaking this labeling issues...i wish there should also be a break on this traditional use of binders by toms which I believe risks their health. An under shirt is fine, but to suppress something to appear flat chested and like a man is ... (meaning i don't understand) but anyway, that's the way they like it uhuh uhuh

and ALSO! this awful, dreadful, unacceptable (for me yeah) about Dees who hangs-out with toms because they find them better than boyfriends when it comes to shopping?! (i think i read it from cee's article in CNN, but it's true indeed) I feel very sorry for those who settle on this..it's like "oh yeah baby, you're pretty.. I'll parade you as my honey...to show-off to my homies...until i ran-out of money...and yeah its ok with your hubby" ...aarrrgghhh!! mother....

even in sex, it should be two-way. i just hope butch should give-in sometimes as they are missing something ecstatic. but dees must learn to please as well NOT only because they can't O from ur bfs/hubbies and then they hang out with toms to have it. Some sad facts i'm seeing around me, but it's all there though.

I agree with you generally Mizcroft. I don't like binding becaus eI think breasts are wonderful, and a to should not be ashamed of that. I can appreciate it if someoneone is really F2M but cannot see it otherwise.

Too, I don't like the way many dys use toms. Use them for sex, use them for material reasons. I have heard from tom friends of some toms going massively into debt and ending up broken hearted. Love should be about love and MUTUAL support not one providing everything for the other....

Anyway I like toms, but I think there is a lot of abuse of toms by straight and bi women who see them as easy marks, By the same token I think many toms are too caught up in their own issues of conforming, and need to brak free...

About sex, I think it can be two way even if one is always a top and the other is a bottom. I don't really like to be the bottom. I can but I don't like it. The important thing is not who does what, or even if there is a sexual component, the important thing is two hearts meshing..

Grace

lipstick lesbian a very femme lesbian,in US , true
in France where I do live in the moment, they are not known, in London I'm there 2 days a week, they exist... in Germany, I'm born but since 10 years never have never been, quite nobody knows what does it mean...lipstick lesbian, in Spain Yes they do know it..... in Japan too, Bangkok I've been 17 times only for 2 to 4 weeks, it was way too short to figure out.....moving to Bangkok 2011 the picture will be a bit more clear maybe,
me a true lipstick lesbian, a switch, u got it Gina

@ Granualie

I dont know many tom/dee couples but if that happens to toms then that's really sad. You're right, love should be about mutual support.

While on this topic, like i said i don't know many other lesbians outside of this website but on the straight or bi women who plays the dee when with a tom... I actually know two girls who are straight but when they tried to be with other girls they took on the role of 'tom' instead.

Makes me think of what you guys were talking about with people fitting themselves into the roles, cause those girls were straight but they're not really feminine, so maybe they felt they should be the tom when they tried it with girls?

I dunno...

could be triggered by mood or vibrations...

Yeah.. Don't bind your breasts! It's unhealthy.
If there could be anyone who can rightfully say 'Love is irrelevant to genders', it's homosexual people. So, why restrict yourself to binders, trying to appear like a boy? Tommy girls are interesting enough without the binders. (Actually, don't you think binders kinda make a cool tommy girl suddenly appears less hot?)

@tinct, yes for me I think so... I like the tomboy style and attitude, but I like breasts so binding is one thing I don't like about tomboys... I can accept it, but it is like the obsession with roles, I like better free of it.... Boyish girls, that don't want to be men, that is where they become unattractive to me, when they identify so totally with men...

@Tinc and Grace,

Good points you shared here again about binders, I believe tom with big breasts aren't bad to look at. Well unless their dee gfs with smaller twins won't feel insecure when they're together and feel less woman.

Breasts are beautiful.... and it needs proper care like regular check by yourself to see if there are some lumps growing there. If you find your breasts big enough you can't type properly on your computer keyboard or experiencing some difficulties as you steer due to some heavy frontal weight while driving...you can use some dark shirts or vertically printed clothes to lessen its appearance, but definitely not suppress them to appear as if there's nothing there.

And binders are for disorganized papers or filing purpose. Breasts should appear perky and if necessary needs enough time to be free away from some under gears too.

@mizcroft I agree with you. I can understand the binding in some cases, if a tom really identifies primarily as a man, which is something I can understand, but if they identify as women, even a masculine woman, I think they should be proud of them. I like breasts, not large ones. Cleavage doesn't do anything for me. But small perky breasts are nice, distinguish them from boys. I know some toms want to be seen as boys, and I respect that. I'm not attracted to boys but I can respect it.

LOL, so I guess I find very boyish girls very attractive, but that are definitely women...

Anyway, hope to see everyone Saturday at the party...

I couldn't agree more with you guys. I like toms but, i do like breasts too... and i kinda love cleavage as well... but it's understandable if they bind their breasts because they identify more as a boy than a girl.

Yes, though if they identify as boys too much, my interest in them wanes to friendship. I do like boyish women, tomboys more in the western sense. For me at one extreme maybe is the butch in the second short in the film If These Walls Could Talk 2 - beyond that I'm not attracted, though, hmmm she is pretty stone butch. Brandon Teena (her story was depicted in Boys Don't Cry) would have been too butch for me, as well as my hero Leslie Feinberg (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Feinberg and http://www.transgenderwarrior.org). Sie is my hero though I think I can never get used to using the gender neutral pronouns sie encourages. I like a bit more like Shane on the L Word... But also Diego in Drifting Flowers and the tattoo artist in Spider Lilies...

Why are all my examples only in movies...